Why The CEO Call Might Be Fake

A voice call comes in from the CEO’s real number, using the CEO’s voice, asking a finance leader to move money right now. It sounds legitimate, it matches the company context, and it hits that perfect “urgent but plausible” tone. The only reason it fails is simple: the employee follows process instead of pressure. That moment sets the stage for a wide-ranging talk about the human element of cybersecurity and why psychology is becoming the new firewall. 

We sit down with Vishal, Chief Information and Security Officer at Onclusive, to unpack what’s changing as AI-powered phishing, deepfakes, and role-based attacks get sharper. We get into what effective security awareness training looks like when emails are near-perfect, why “easy reporting” beats shaming people for clicks, and how least privilege access control plus multiple approvals can keep one mistake from turning into a full-scale breach. We also dig into policy engagement, employee acknowledgements, and how commitment bias can turn boring policy into real behavior change. 

Then we zoom out to the AI paradox: the same tools that can compress weeks of hacking work into minutes can also help small security teams move faster, reduce technical debt, and fix vulnerabilities sooner. The final takeaway is practical and urgent: embrace AI, modernize your procedures, and treat your people as your strongest detection system when you train them well. If you got value from this, subscribe, share it with a teammate, and leave a review.

Joshua Crumbaugh is a world-renowned ethical hacker and a subject matter expert in social engineering and behavioral science. As the CEO and Founder of PhishFirewall, he brings a unique perspective on cybersecurity, leveraging his deep expertise to help organizations understand and combat human-centered vulnerabilities in their security posture. His work focuses on redefining security awareness through cutting-edge AI, behavioral insights, and innovative phishing simulations.

PhishFirewall uses AI-driven micro-training and continuous, TikTok-style video content to eliminate 99% of risky clicks—zero admin effort required. Ready to see how we can fortify your team against phishing threats? Schedule a quick demo today!

Transcript

Cold Open On Human Hacking

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Psychology is the new firewall where human insight trumps every trick. We're not hacking systems, we're hacking behaviors, so you won't click. No complicated code, just try it in true brain science at play. Social engineering for good. The best defense is in your mind today.

Meet Vishal And The Incident

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Fishing for Answers. Today we've got Vichal with us, and he is the Chief Information and Security Officer at Onclusive. Why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about uh yourself, how you got into cybersecurity, and uh and anything you think might be pertinent.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Thank you, Joshua. Um, for me, um uh my name is Vishal. I'm currently chief uh information and security officer at Onclusive. Umclusio is a combination of multiple companies. Um at uh in 2022, a private equity acquired six different companies and combined them together into one entity called Enclusive. Um before that, um I was a chief technology officer for one of those companies called Critical Mention, which is headquartered here in New York. Uh before that, I have worked in both domains. Previously, uh I worked into an infrastructure domain, um, built servers, built data center, uh was a uh VPO of infrastructure. Then I went into development. I have done Python, PHP, Java, um, different uh development, uh uh built uh different machine learning models. Um, and at some point I became a CTO. Um then back in 2023-2024, we had a cyber incident um at Onclusio. Uh back then I was SVP of engineering, um, I was managing uh mostly engineering and development, uh, backend infrastructure development, cloud and machine learning development. Um, but we needed someone to um help out with the cyber incident, and that's when um I decided to take that opportunity and learn more about it. Uh, we went through um an incident and we were able to get that mitigated um uh uh within a few days, and we were uh we learned a lot in the process. I learned a lot in the process, and then I moved on from there to be a CIO and a CSO for Enclusive. Um, I I I've been in security domain uh for more than three and a half years now. In that time, uh normally when I when I'm leading any team, my approach is to learn more about that domain, uh, get as many certifications as possible. Um so I became CISSP in a process, I became certified CISO in a process, I'm an ethical hacker, uh, I have done all different sets of certification, and I'm hands-on uh CISO, it's a little bit different thing, but I'm very hands-on and I'd like to get involved in a daily security um fights, like need to make sure that all my teams and my uh managers know exactly what our approach would be, and I like to be very proactive when we uh look at security. So that's an introduction.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Awesome. That's a great introduction. And uh, you know, I think that's the only thing good that actually does come from these ransomware incidents or cyber incidents as a whole, is that often we learn so much. Um, and it's it's not just uh for people that haven't been exposed to it. I mean, even cybersecurity professionals were still learning from every new incident, new tradecraft, new tactics that the bad guys are using uh to help us uh well, I guess what they're using to stay one step ahead. Uh, but as we learn those, we're able to uh stay, you know, hopefully stay one step ahead of them. Um what uh this whole thing is about the the human element of cybersecurity.

Why Humans Drive Most Breaches

SPEAKER_01 5:19

So, you know, just what what's the biggest thing that as you've gotten all those certifications, as you've uh worked in cybersecurity, that has stood out to you the most about the human element?

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Um, I think human element is the most important element here at cybersecurity. Whatever incidents we had, like I would say 80% plus incident, and uh this is an ongoing cycle. Like people will try to um get into your system, try to extradite information, try to hack into your system. This is a constant process. The bad guys won't stop, which means you have to be constantly alert and on top of your game to make sure that you are ready. Um, and again, it's not just you or not your technical team, not your cyber team. Um, I think you the entire organization is important. You need to keep them up to date uh with all different kinds of attacks, phishing attacks, fear phishing attacks. Like, so there's constant training you need to get to those uh team members, you need to make them aware that it is important that um you are aware of what might happen, right? Like, not just to your leadership team, but it needs to um drill down to every single engineer and every single employee for that matter.

Training Against AI Perfect Phish

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So, what we have learned and what we have done particularly, we have uh taken an initiative uh where we are training each team, um uh like uh more often than not, at least quarterly, on different aspects of cybersecurity, what kind of attack they they will um get, like previously used to get an email. Uh the email used to have uh a lot of uh imperfection, which was easy to find. With the age of AI, now don't anymore. It's not anymore, right? Like things look perfect, they look like they are originated uh from within your environment. So we uh like AI is good and bad. So we are also integrating the AI experiences in our training. We are sending out a near-perfect email out simulation emails to our team, figuring out who might get compromised, uh um, and then we are giving them an extra set of training. But while doing that, the one thing which we which really really helps is that you need to be extremely careful about who has what access. That's uh another biggest uh biggest challenge of uh managing security. So we made uh a lot of back and forth, and we uh took an effort to reduce the access significantly to the most of the team members. Um, now we have many layers within access, and multiple approvals are needed to get any access at all. And admin or local admin access are non-existent. You can't cannot be an admin or a local admin on any of those machines. You cannot install any software uh without getting an approval. You need to have someone from IT to go through an approval process to install something. I think that's the biggest challenge when it comes comes to uh securing your infrastructure. There is another part, uh, other human element in a training is someone might be uh uh reaching out to you as a CEO or a CTO of an organization on an uh outside uh infrastructure. They would send out a WhatsApp messages and telling you to do something which you would not do normally, right? Like asking you to send out send money to certain accounts, asking you to send password information because they look they were locked out. So we are uh arranging specific trainings regarding that. Like we we saw this incidents more often than not. We are training team members than if you reach out, if you get a reach out from a CEO or CTO, they would not really normally reach out to you for password reset. They will also go through the process, they will have to create a ticket, they will have to uh follow the process. No one uh uh doesn't matter who that person is, you got to be careful about making any changes. We uh if the pro if the request doesn't come from a proper channel.

Process Beats Executive Impersonation

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Well, I think uh to that point that one of the greatest weapons that we have uh or defenses that we have to combat uh the AI-driven attacks that we see so frequently uh really are process and procedure, because that's the part that the AI can't fake. That's the part that the AI can't get around. Um, and you know, when we look at these scenarios like the you know, deep fake in Hong Kong, where the guy got on a Zoom call with the CFO and the CEO of the company, or so he thought, but it was all a deep fake, and then he wires off 25 million. Process and procedure would have fixed that or prevented that from happening if they had you know stuck to it, if everyone was educated and knew, hey, not even the executives are gonna break procedure, we never go outside of this. And if they had had that training, I think it would make a big difference. So, to that, uh, something you mentioned earlier was that you train each one of your teams. Um, and it's it's really stood out to me that as AI has progressed over the past few years, and particularly, we are now seeing a lot more role-based cyber attacks against our people. Our finance teams get targeted with finance uh, you know, financial fraud attacks. We our IT teams are getting targeted specifically to them. Our development teams are getting targeted. Uh so we're seeing all of that, but what I don't see is much in the workforce yet or in the enterprise space is that role-based training internally. Uh, are you doing anything there? And if so, maybe you could talk a little bit about what you're doing and uh and what kind of results you've seen.

Role Based Training And Fast Reporting

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Um absolutely. I think uh uh, like you said, now with the help of AI, things have become even more complicated. Right? The attacks are very specific, uh, they look very real, they look like they are targeting uh a user or a department. So we have done the uh we have uh so we're using AI to simulate those attacks uh as well as uh creating a training module ourselves. So we put together a training platform. Previously, uh we used to uh use uh No Before and Meta Compliance and all other different training channels uh where the uh training there was a generic training, and then you would have some components which were specific. But now um we are using our own AI modules to build uh department specific trainings plus individual team-specific trainings. Uh, those trainings uh include what we do um as an entity, what our processes are, and what we how we would respond to any of those attacks. So, like what we are making very aware. I think awareness is the most important key here that you you can go through many trainings and you need uh a lot of management support for that as well, because everybody has to uh put uh 30 minutes to an hour, maybe more sometimes from their calendar every other month uh to come and attain those trainings. So uh this you need support from management to get those programs going, but again, as you make people more and more aware, and you have to make them aware and you have to provide them an easy way of communication. So, what we have said is that if you think anything is not correct or fishy, send it out to uh information security, um, forward the email, forward your message, um, send it out to us, and we will help you right away. You don't don't worry about creating a ticket, going through the entire process. We would do that after the fact. If you find anything fishy, if you see an email where they're asking you to send money, if you see like anything which is not normal, send it out directly to us. We will uh step in, we would help you out, and then we will go through a process of creating tickets. So making everybody aware and making the process of reaching out to IT or security really, really easy were the two most important uh things. Um, and then uh you also have to work with the development team specifically. That's another challenge. They have their own goals, and uh, you need to make sure that you align your security program in such a way that uh it can um empower them, it doesn't become a bottleneck in the process of uh new innovation um or uh new feature building.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, and there's actually a formula that was developed out of Stanford's Behavioral Science Laboratory for behavior change. Um, and it basically says if we want to create behavior change, we need uh motivation plus ability. That's that's where you say make it as easy as possible for them. Um so the easier we can make it, the more likely they are to do it. Uh, but also prompting. And uh and prompting is one of those critical ones where we're constantly reminding them of it, constantly keeping it front of mind. Um, so you mentioned communicating uh to your users, sort of the, you know, hey, this is how we do things internally, and sort of getting that commitment from

Policy Sign Off For Commitment

SPEAKER_01 15:13

them. Um, one of the things that uh that we've been uh or that I've been really interested in and talking about lately is that commitment bias. Um and that's how when people sign their name to something and uh and they say they'll do something, they're they have a bias to make good on that promise. Now, why do people never care about the policy? It's because they don't understand what they're signing their name to. Um, and so one of the things that we've been doing is uh having our users sign something that that looks exactly like this, uh that however this is more generic, uh, whereas ours would be slightly more tailored to the uh you know to our own people. Um but I'm curious, do you have anything like this in place? Uh uh what are you doing around policy to help drive that better engagement and better uh retention?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Uh sure. So we we are using a couple of tools to do something similar. We use a tool called SecureGuard OS, um, where all our policies are managed and updated, and uh uh what they do is that it it there is a complete process of developing the policies, keeping them up to date, and distributing those policies on a regular interval happens within that tool. Um, it's integrated with our Slack channel, with our emails, um, and with our hybrid HR integration. So when um user-related policies such as uh bring your own device or clean desk or any of those policies, they get updated and sent out every so often through multiple channels, like uh email, slacks, high bob. Uh, hybrid uh integration is such a way that people have to sign their name to it, that they have opened it, they have read the policy, um, and they have signed on top of it. Again, this is a requirement now for both SOC and uh ISO certifications. Um, so both of the certifications now require you to make sure that uh employees-related policies are distributed frequently, but not just that. The employees have looked at it and signed it um as an acknowledgement of those policies. So we are doing the same.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Uh awesome. Yeah, no, I I think it's a it's a really critical element that the employees understand what the policy is, why the policy is there, and that they sign their name to it. And I think that's one of those things that because policy is so boring, it sometimes gets uh gets overlooked.

Carrot Incentives That Actually Work

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Um, so one question I like to ask absolutely every guest on the show is if you had to choose only one, which would you go with carrot or stick and why?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I think I would go with carrot. I think it's uh always easier. Like if you try to enforce something, um, if you try to punish people for doing uh certain things, I mean there is obviously that, but you would not get a great response. Um, like response would be restricted, there would be a lot of uh um uninvolvement, people who will not would want to be part of it. Uh, instead, if you tell them what they would achieve by doing that, we are doing our internal certifications as well. We are uh calling out champions uh within information security and within the organizations for uh completing their training on time or uh like reaching out for certain issues. We are putting it in our newsletter every month that hey um we found this issue, uh this particular person reached out about uh this cybersecurity incident, and then it all it created an impact. So we are also talking about that impact in our newsletter, sending out we are creating the kudos moment um within our high bob regarding all that, right? So the I think uh I mean within carrot and stick, I always think the carrot would be a much better, it gives an incentive to both your team and the people who are actually need to be aware of security to learn something new and follow the practice.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah, I know my mom taught me when I was younger that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Um, and I I think, you know, I always think of that when the carrot versus stick thing comes up, but I completely agree uh because it's better to motivate people uh to want to do something than to try and make them do it out of fear. Uh, because fear will work to an extent, but it comes with resentment and a lot of negative. Um so you mentioned earlier about how AI is really changing the fishing game. Uh, so tell me a story about one of the fish that you've seen recently that scared you, if you will. One of the ones that you look at, you're like, wow, I'm really glad they didn't click and they reported it. Uh, because this one's good.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah, I think every single thing um has become absolutely crazy. I will tell you a recent story.

Deepfake CEO Call Near Miss

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Um, one of our um a finance employee at a very high level who has uh access to send out money received an audio call, not a message, not a text, a call from our uh CEO. Um, it came from CEO's number. So number was uh uh spoop. Um, and on that call, um, he was asked to transfer some money. Um CEO was on phone. Um, we we are in the process of acquisition now, so uh it looked really, really real, and we had to send out some money right away. Um, again, uh, even though it was a CEO who was calling, the employee reported it. Um and uh we figured out it didn't really come from a CEO, but it was so real that we couldn't even uh so we had to when we traced it back, everything. Um it it was very, very close to being real thing, and uh we we we got lucky that we didn't transfer any money.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Um, but this was it the CEO's voice too.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

It was CEO's voice, it was CEO's number, everything was exact the same, but it was not CEO who was calling. Luckily, the guy knew that CEO was out on vacation that week, so he he was a little bit suspicious and uh would wouldn't transfer the money.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

But here, if you think that goes the other direction though, because They're out on vacation, no one wants to bother them, so they do what they're told to.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

So no, it's it's it's definitely possible. But if you think about this particular scenario here, see, look what all is happening. Not only are they spoofing you at number they are doing using defects to uh emulate your voice, uh, but also they know exactly who, so they do their search with an AI that who may be able to transfer the money, right? So all these things uh uh and uh I have not just the phishing, but it's now implemented everywhere. I got an early access to my those, so I have checked it previously as a red team member or as a purple team member or or ethical hacker when I had to uh hack into any system for the like you know uh to understand how uh vulnerable it

AI Makes Hacking A Prompt

SPEAKER_00 22:55

is, right? It used to take an entire team, it used to take uh a scanning activity, figuring out the posts, figuring out how to get into it, then finding out what all what all softwares are running on it, like what can you compromise? How do you get uh uh way to get some uh hash out of it? Like, how do you decrypt it? How do you then move from there laterally to another machine? How can you find an admin access? So it it was a long process, it used to take weeks to months, um, uh literally and a team. Uh, with these new tools, um, uh it's just one prompt. And I have seen it personally, I have tried it. You put one prompt, you put your target, and it would do all this for you within minutes. So that has become extremely crazy, and uh, we now have to be constantly uh on our toes, and we have to constantly be thinking what could be the next. Like you have to go through a process of uh training your employees, but also a process of hardening your infrastructure and thinking it from the lenses of an hacker. What would he be thinking and figuring out how do you make it difficult?

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Uh it's it's scary what AI can do. And and I mean to put it into perspective what you were just saying, quite literally, I have a VM running right now that is doing uh penetration test, and uh and I just check in on it every once in a while to answer any questions it might have. Uh it really is just mind-blowing what can be done and and how much of a force multiplier it is for people. Um, but AI also comes with its its downsides

AI As A Developer Force Multiplier

SPEAKER_01 24:40

too. But so let's start with what are you excited about? What's what's the thing about AI that's helping you the most that you know you geek out about the most? And then we can get to the dark side.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Absolutely. Uh, as a developer, right? Like uh I see AI is super helpful. Um, I have uh done development and I have managed infrastructure also for a very long time. Like um to manage machines or infrastructure on AWS, or as you need to be an expert in it, like I have got those certifications back in the days, but now it has become so much easier with AI. AI is not only help you find and fix the problem, but it can make those things automated and guide you in the right direction. You don't need to be an expert, you can basically ask the prompt as long as you know the basics and what you are doing, you can really get to uh the solution much easier and much quicker. Uh in olden days, we used to use Google, and then you used to go on all those different forums to find out what how do you fix this particular problem? And we see multiple people are saying giving their opinions and we try out multiple things. Yeah, AI has made life so much easier from that particular. Oh, yes, it has. So there is no more going to Google on the development front. I am really, really excited with AI. Like I have uh I mean I have developed things previously, but now I can develop the entire thing from scratch myself without getting any help.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yes, and you can prototype quicker yourself than when you had a team of developers before. Um, that's something that's really stood out to me is that um it's really changed it. I mean, you can move so quickly when you're writing code. Um, I mean, some of these models are are just remarkably fast uh and accurate at that.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

So and other aspect to it, while uh in the security perspective, right, like AI is helping you remove your tech debts so much faster. Um we we use it ourselves, but recently I was following uh Firefox uh CEO. He said in one day they fix 136 bugs in Firefox uh with the help of Mythos, right? Like, so that's think about it when you have an entire team, it would take weeks, months, maybe years to fix 136 bugs. So now you could do it within a day.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

So there is always the plus and minus and we have all that automated, so you know, the second a bug gets uh gets registered, um, that it kicks off an agent to go in and start, you know, the code and that uh you know push a PR that uh will go over to a developer and uh and they can either you know merge or not. Um but uh but yeah, I think it's just phenomenal. And and I I've seen other companies that have it to where they have it integrated into Slack, their different agents, so that their their customer support team, for example, can go in and say, hey, I want this new feature in a you know in the Slack channel, and the agent will just automatically kick off and start building out that new feature. So I think it's a little bit scary, uh, but but it's also, I mean, the the code that I've seen, uh a little bit about my background, I uh have spent a lot of time in application security uh for the federal government. And so I've had the opportunity to look at thousands of web applications uh throughout my career. And and and not just web applications mostly, uh, but thousands of applications. And and what stood out to me is that AI writes cleaner code, more secure code than most humans do. Um, now it can make just as big a mistake as humans do. Um uh like we heard about that company that had their whole database deleted. Uh did you see that news? Um I I still question why. Well, I I won't even get into that. I mean that that it's a great pivot point, though, the negative of AI.

The Risk Of Staying On Legacy

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah, I mean, again, it's the same story, right? Like when AI can help you improve your infrastructure, make it more secure much faster. But if you uh stay behind and if you don't implement those practices within your business, uh AI can help the bad actors equally, right? So, and I'm I'm worried about a lot of banks and other people. I have worked previously with a couple of banks. I know that how deliberate they are or uh making any changes, and a lot of their software is the legacy not updated for a long time. We we all went through a similar process previously. We always wanted to uh keep a stable infrastructure, then more secure infrastructure. We would uh be worried about uh upgrading any software because of the dependencies. Um, but if you don't do it, uh the it would be so much easier for an AI to find and exploit that. So that is the biggest challenge right now.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

I I agree uh completely. Um so you already mentioned deep fakes. We, you know, we're seeing a drastic rise in fishing. Um, I saw one study that said there was an 800% increase in phishing attacks last year, uh, which is ridiculous considering how many phishing attacks we already had. Um, but it it doesn't surprise me. We've got deep fakes, we've got phishing, we've got fishing. Um, fishing is one of the ones that concerns me because all of a sudden, AI now can completely do this. It can call up the phone, it can argue with you in real time, and it's pretty believable. Uh, depending on the models, it's extremely believable that it's a human. And if I'm targeting you for a million dollars, I'm using the best model I can get my hands on, right? So I I think that it's that's the part that concerns me.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I agreed. Um, and then uh I think that's why you need to make sure everybody's on the same page. You have to update your training, you are update your processes, and you have to update your policies as well to um to catch up with the AI. Um, and you also have to think out of the box, right? Like you cannot go with an old proven practices of hey, I'll keep everything stable, everything running, even though it's working on the uh older version. Um, I wouldn't touch it. That is no longer a possibility. Even within the training, you can't say, okay, I will just train my teams for fishing and certain attacks. That's not you have to now go the next step and make it very uh uh uh very personal, and you have to make those trainings uh uh so customized that uh and you have to keep up that game, you have to constantly update training models, you have to constantly reach out to all your teams, and the communication is also now needs to be 24 by 7. You have to reach out to your teams, you have to tell them, hey, things are changing, right? Like there are two ways of looking at it, right? One, you say uh everything is changing, then I'm not gonna worry about it, I'm not looking at it like AI is really bad, and uh I will not work with it. That way is not gonna work out. You have to accept it. That's not gonna work out well for anyone, exactly. Right. So you have to accept it that the change is coming and you have to make yourself ready for it.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah, I agree. And I I think AI can empower us as much as it presents risk, and um, and that's where I'm the most optimistic, is because while it does present a lot of risk and it does empower the bad guys, it empowers our teams. All of a sudden, that small cybersecurity team that was understaffed can do so much more than they ever could before. So I'm I'm really excited uh about what uh what the future holds. I know AI is certainly the the key topic.

Embrace AI Plus Human Judgment

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Um, any sort of final bits of wisdom before we wrap up today's episode?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Uh it was very interesting episode. Um, I learned a lot in the discussion. Uh, my only thoughts here are that uh you need to embrace AI. Whatever happens, right? If you don't, if you keep your uh open mind and if you are ready to learn, and you have to start it from the very high level, uh, like from your ALT teams to your management. Everybody needs to be a part of the game, everybody needs to be ready to learn new things and uh find out what all can be achieved by using AI and uh better security practices together, right? It's it's not just AI, it's AI plus humans who can make you secure. So you have to give uh same amount of importance and significance to both sides of cybersecurity.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Oh, I I agree. I think the human humans can be our greatest asset, but we've never embraced the behavioral science uh side of this. I mean, we've been humans have been studying how to change behavior for thousands of years. Um, it's it's something that I, in my opinion, we just need a little bit more of in uh inside of cybersecurity because as we embrace the human, um, they truly become our our best, you know, endpoint detection. Uh, you know, they were essentially crowdsourcing all of that uh that detection. And uh and that gives us a lot better insight into what's actually happening to our organization.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Agree. I think I think uh that's why we need to look at both. We have to uh learn um about AI, now embrace it, but also train all the employees and everybody else on how to use it, what's good uh and best practices, and uh what shall be avoided, right? So all that is now part of new realm.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

It it has to be because if you don't make it available to them and you don't tell them how to use it safely, they're gonna use it unsafely, and uh and it's gonna expose your business. Um, so uh thank you so much for your time today. This has been an awesome episode. Uh, everybody who joined us, uh, thank you for joining. Have a great day, and we will see you again next week.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Thank you, Joshua.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 35:25

I want to work for us, please.